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 Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...

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konradr

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PostSubject: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:34 am

Clarifying Axes, clubs and maces a bit.

Quote :
Dagorhirim,
As head weapons checker the responsibility for weapon safety and weapon standards are the job at hand. Over the last few years weapons construction and new technology has created niche weaponry on the field that does not have its own rule set. The head weapons checker is forced to use the current MOA (Approved by RWC June 2009 and updated December 2009) in order to address these weapons fairly.
The rules below affect: swords, clubs, maces and axes. These rules are what a weapon checker has to work with to be safe and fair to each participant. Some weapons that are not addressed in the MOA are, and not limited to clubs, maces and axes.
This is to make sure that the weapons checking guidelines are clear and concise within a reasonable timeframe before Ragnarok.
4.1.2 - Weapons Checkers and Heralds have the final say in determining how to classify a weapon, e.g., whether a weapon with a circular cross-section is a "sword" or a "club." (This rule is basis for checking all non-listed blue weapons.)


4.1.11 - Restrictions:
4.1.11.1 - The pommel of a weapon must be padded to prevent injury in the event of an accidental "hit" and must not easily go through a 2 inch-diameter hole.
4.1.11.2 - All bladed weapons must conform to the following: hide
4.1.11.2.1 - Minimum dimensions of 1.25 inch by 3 inches.
4.1.11.2.2 - Minimum dimensions for single edged bladed weapons are 1.25 by 2.5 inches
4.1.11.2.3 - Blue weapons must weigh a minimum of 12 ounces.
4.2.1 - Blue weapons are edged (hacking) or mass (smashing) melee weapons intended primarily for one-handed use.
4.2.2 - Blue swords must have a minimum blade length of 12 inches from above the handgrip to the tip and a maximum total length less than 48 inches.

Most understand how these rules applies to swords, but how do these rules affect the club, mace and ax.



Clubs:

Because of rule 4.1.11.2.1 the club needs to be a minimum of 3” across in all directions. Where the sword has defined edges for striking, the club striking surface is on all sides.

Rule 4.2.2 requires 12” inches of striking surface and the handgrip should not exceed 1/3 of the total length of the weapon. Include adequate courtesy padding as necessary. Between the two rules above this means a club needs a 3” cross-section for the top 12” of the weapon.

Maces:

Follow the same rules as the club above. To make the weapon look more like a mace enlarge the top of the weapon, be creative.

Ax:

The Ax has defined edges and flats. Single Edge axes use rule 4.1.11.2.2. This means that along the flat it needs to measure a minimum of 2.5”, and that it must have tape along the back; or non-striking side of the blade. It must also resemble the shape of an Ax. The ax blade must conform to the standard 1.25” min width. Again, the handle cannot extend past 1/3 the total length of the weapon, and adequate courtesy padding should be added wherever necessary. Two sided axes need to use the 3-inch rule 4.1.11.2.1 for the first 12 inches or to handgrip. Blades may extend past the 3” as desired.

Plastidip:

Plastidip on weapons is a safety and rules concern that has come up in the recent year. This technology is new and looks cool, but it is untried in the long haul. Using rule:
4.1.4 - All weapons must have cloth covering over all striking surfaces. This striking surface rule is the key to determining where PD will be permitted. Basically any place one would put tape instead of cloth should be acceptable i.e. Flats, quillions, incidental padding, and pommels.

Shields, because of their nature on the battle field as a striking non-wounding piece of equipment fall under the 4.1.4 rule. Shields need to be covered in cloth not plastic dip.







Arrows:

Tape should not be used to wrap carbon, fiberglass or aluminum arrow shafts, the rule ( 4.5.3.15.7 - All wooden arrows must have their shafts wrapped in tape.) applies only to wooden arrows Aluminum and fiberglass arrows cannot be taped because the tape will hide damage or breaks in the shaft. There have been arrows shot that break in half or have the head fall off in flight. The shake test archers use to check for damaged arrows does not catch all broken arrows that are taped. Because of this only wooden arrows are to be taped.

Shields:
4.1.11.5 - No weapons other than aluminum-shafted arrows may have metal cores.
The above rule applies to shields due to the offensive ability of the shield and using a “reasonable person” standard. We do strike, bash and punch with shields, 4.8.1 - A shield bash means using a shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance more than two steps away. 4.8.2 - A shield check means using a shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance two steps away or closer. This means that solid metal cores in shields are disallowed.
If a metal-cored shield is not made properly, when it fails, serious damage could be done to a participant.
To address the metal detectors issue, if they are used at Rag it would be in this manner:
spot checks by trained staff.

How will a weapon be checked? Starting the wand just above the handle, handgrip, quillions and moving toward the top of the weapon at an even pace. In the case where people use a penny or something similar at the top of their core, the wand will emit a short beep. This short beep is passable. If, during the pass, a long beep registers for many inches, it is cause for failure. Metal used in the hand grip and pommel for weighting purposes is allowed.

Back in the day scales were not used and now they are. It has become a weapons check standard. Making sure that your opponent has no metal in the “business end” of his weapon should also be a standard. This standard needs also to apply to shields.

Additional comments from Rag weapons checker:

Quote :
1) No weapon can pass more than .5" through a 2.5" diameter hold. This is for eye socket protection, and will be true no matter what. In other words, a 2.5" diameter round weapon will never pass.

2) All weapons need to be able to be SAFELY swung by the biggest person on the field without injuring the smallest person on the field. I'm not talking about cranking back for big hits, I'm talking about your average swing. 2 layers of blue camping foam over a .5" PVC pipe will not pass, no matter what the measurements may be.

3) We're measuring weapons with a tape measure or with template blocks, NOT with calipers. A little bit of rounding in measurements can be involved. We have places for perfectionists and lawyers in weapons check - they make great backs to hit.

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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:58 am

Update me please, Are spear heads still like 2" +something (.5 or .75) or are they 3.5" like jav heads????

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Smithy
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:13 am

I will delve into this and find an answer for you.

Cool
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:01 am

Thanks Smithy. I know Bel is going to the minimum spearhead and I think that's 2.75. I plan on getting another bandshoppe pole in the near future and making another spear, but I want the head to be Dag legal.

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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:00 pm

Its the same as a spear. Because a jav can be used as a spear. This info that you found, is this for next Rag?
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:15 pm

This is what was enforced @ rag XXV.

Logic behind it is that if the minimum dimension for a single-edged blade is 2.5" edges. How are maces which, are all-striking edges, 2.5" across when that fails for width for a normal double-edged blue sword. So the logic is that if you have more than 1 striking edge it cant be 2.5" across the top.

Quote :
Because of rule 4.1.11.2.1 the club needs to be a minimum of 3” across in all directions. Where the sword has defined edges for striking, the club striking surface is on all sides.

Rule 4.2.2 requires 12” inches of striking surface and the handgrip should not exceed 1/3 of the total length of the weapon. Include adequate courtesy padding as necessary.

Between the two rules above this means a club needs a 3” cross-section for the top 12” of the weapon.



also the 3.5" head rule is now official being as Rag XXV occured and the ruling was made @ Rag XXIV.

Does this answer anything?
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:43 pm

I've tried to keep up on the differences and maintained a comparison on geddon. http://geddon.org/index.php/Dagorhir_Belegarth_Rules_Comparison

To directly answer Konradr's question, current rules regarding green-only weapons should not need to match the rules for yellow weapons. There is an interesting ambiguity in the rules, but the minimum width for a weapon is >2.5" (realistically about ~2.75"). I have no problem with the 3" interpretation for clubs, but I don't think it applies to spears since they have no striking surface at all, only a stabbing one. As evidence and useful construction advice, I'd point you to Arrakis' low-profile tut on the dag board. I didn't see a single member of the Dag leadership complain that it was too small and it will come out to 2.75".

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=18500.0
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Thu Dec 16, 2010 8:39 pm

There is also the change to this ruling made @ XXV -

A shot striking baggy garb, a worn weapon, etc. with "Noticeable" force is a valid strike. Fighters may not call garb.

Rule 3.4.1 on hits has changed to this. Enforcement starts @ XXVI:


3.4.1 A hit from a hand-held weapon counts when the weapon’s striking surface hits with sufficient force. Clarification: taps, grazing, and glancing shots do not count as sufficient force.
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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:04 am

When that change went through I removed the row addressing the wording differences in both games for a successful strike as there is now no significant difference. You raise an interesting point, though, as the garb section remains unchanged.
MoA wrote:
4.10.2 - If a blow strikes a sheathed weapon (i.e., one that is attached/hanging from one's belt or over one's back) or any other worn object, including baggy clothing such as cloaks, the attack is considered to have hit the fighter. A weapon must be in a fighter's hand to intercept an attack.
I think I'll modify that section to read:
Rules Comparison wrote:
A shot striking baggy garb, a worn weapon, etc. is a valid strike. Fighters may not call garb.
Many Dag chapters do not play this way, including yourselves, but that is what the rules state and some chapters do expect any hit to clothing, etc. to be taken as a valid hit.
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konradr

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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:17 am

It doesn't specify, but maybe they are taking it to mean a hit. that is inline with the direction of the strike.

One I mean is, a shot that moves in an arc, and catches your Garb, would be 'Garb' or 'light'. A shot that hits you solidly on the thigh, but your thick cloak absorbs some of it, they are considering a solid hit, don't call garb. Like a shot that hits a sheathed weapon or weapon against your body. That is anviling, you may not feel the force in the blow, but you have to take it.

???

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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:38 pm

That is the way a lot of Dag people, perhaps the majority, play the game and certainly the way we interpret it in Bel. The problem is that the rule says that if it hits you gear at all, regardless of whether it would have hit you, you have to take it and when we were putting this together we had a few dag fighters and cross-gamers chime in that, yes, some folks do indeed enforce it that way.

Which brings us to the point that there are really more variations from realm to realm and region to region in rules interpretation within Dag and Bel than there are specific rules differences between the two games. This comparison is just to keep people informed of the technicalities.
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:15 pm

Just don't forget Konradr, technically.... in Dag you may not call Garb. If in Dag if it hits clothing it hits body a lot of people wouldn't wear the baggy ass pants they do. Just saying.

I'll bring this up at Rag war Council this year, pretty sure I can get this clarified.
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:39 pm

Well, from what I've seen people post on both the Bel and Dag forum, if it hits my baggy pants and not my flesh, I'm calling "Light" because it wasn't a solid hit to said fleshy part. I'm not taking a hit that doesn't connect with my body in anyway. We simply have to get used to saying "Light" instead of "Garb" though garb seems appropriate.

Under the rules, if you call 'Garb' you may be suspect, but if you call 'Light' you are not. Baggy pants are period attire and were probably cut and slashed in combat without any harm to the person's flesh for just that reason.

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barrikaide



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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:50 pm

ill have to chuck out my shorter mace now. If i read that right says striking surface on a mace has to be 12inch min. ahh well
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:18 pm

That includes courtesy padding. If your courtesy padding is equal to the thickness of the striking surface, and both together equal 12 inches, you should be good. At least that is what Smithy told me.

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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:08 am

no on my smaller mace the courtesy padding is only 1 layer. and the striking surface is 3 but might be closer to 6-7inches.
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:26 am

Barrikaide wrote:
no on my smaller mace the courtesy padding is only 1 layer. and the striking surface is 3 but might be closer to 6-7inches.

I think Konradr meant thickness as in the amount of foam rather than the layers.

So if your striking surface is 5 inches, and you have hafting equal to 7 inches, then you are okay. Similarly how the handle of a red must not be longer than 1/3 of the weapon, but the rest of it doesn't have to be striking, it can be hafting AND striking surface.
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:06 am

Quote :

4.2.2 - Blue swords must have a minimum blade length of 12 inches from above the handgrip to the tip and a maximum total length less than 48 inches.

Most understand how these rules applies to swords, but how do these rules affect the club, mace and ax.



Clubs:

Because of rule 4.1.11.2.1 the club needs to be a minimum of 3” across in all directions. Where the sword has defined edges for striking, the club striking surface is on all sides.

Rule 4.2.2 requires 12” inches of striking surface and the handgrip should not exceed 1/3 of the total length of the weapon. Include adequate courtesy padding as necessary. Between the two rules above this means a club needs a 3” cross-section for the top 12” of the weapon.



2) All weapons need to be able to be SAFELY swung by the biggest person on the field without injuring the smallest person on the field. I'm not talking about cranking back for big hits, I'm talking about your average swing. 2 layers of blue camping foam over a .5" PVC pipe will not pass, no matter what the measurements may be.

you actually need 12 inch of stricking surface before you count hafting. Reason why the Royal army daggers are exactly 12inch before the little 1 1/2' of hafting + such.

We actually had a lot of discussions during practice about this and it was always either hafting does or doesn't count toward the overall length + blade length.
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barrikaide



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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:55 am

they have not put these rules on the dag website. Do they plan to?
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:07 am

Updates to the Manual of Arms linked from the homepage on their website are a little. . . sporadic. They'll get around to it, but historically speaking, it may take a year or more.
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:11 pm

Thus why I usually prowl the Forums for war council proceeding, marking any changes to the rules presented. Our rulebook we use is updated to have all the current changes and rules.
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barrikaide



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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:19 pm

12inch strike surface for clubs will make a LOT of clubs fail hehe time to make me some new ones....
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:21 pm

Would be nice to have that updated rulebook copied into a stickied thread on the forums Smile instead of sending new players to an outdated one on the main site(s).
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:21 pm

Barrikaide wrote:
12inch strike surface for clubs will make a LOT of clubs fail hehe time to make me some new ones....

Taco is sad too D:
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PostSubject: Re: Info from a Rag Weapon's checker...   Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:30 pm

Thats okay, my bat has lasted a while and needs repadded anyways:D

SPINAL TAP NEVER FAILS!!!!! Taco, you'd have a bat if you didn't kill your masterpeice:p Rawr!
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