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 Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.

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Trenton

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PostSubject: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:53 am

I've been thinking about the design and how to not make it weight 30 pounds. and really can't think of a material efficient way to make it. I've been contemplating this for months. Translation into a Dag weapon is getting iffy.

A halberd is effectively 5 weapons in 1. You have a blades edge/axe head(hacking), Spear point(stabby), a "break"/Bilge hook/or hammer(stabby pully?) or blunt, staff(blunt), and butt spike(stabby),

-The axe head and bilge hook have to be strong enough to hook things but open enough to not get caught. Spear needs to be a basic spear head.
-The butt spike I'm going to take a guess needs to be more a "mace" with a green on the end. I think of Taco's tree branch red Sept rounded.

One thing I've been concerned with is "4.1.9 - No swung weapon may have more than 1/3 of its overall length unpadded, nor
have more than 30" unpadded."
-I assume this only counts for blues.

4.1.11.8 - Double-ended weapons such as quarter staves are always considered to be blue
weapons.

-Historically the Axe head of a helbard is a try colored weapon. the axe head can be used in 1 or two hands and the ends are stabby bits. Many of the guards of halberd fighting involve aiming PAST your opponent and jerking back stabbing them witht he hook or beard of the axe. :\ And since there is a striking serface on the butt I assume that would be a blue with a green spike? Which would cover the staff and butt spike portion of the weapon. Or would it still be seen as a red as its a two handed blunt?

Here is a general sketch I was aiming for. I however don't have the experience in building to know just how to make it legal.

So any input?
ps. I read max length of a red is 7'. Many post centery halberds are minimal 7'-8' not including spear. I'm fine if it needs to be made shorter. But really less then 6' and its now a poleaxe.
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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:42 pm

Unfortunately you can't have a stabby pommel end. And a glaive would be 10x easier to make and have it be way more effective, the halberd hooking and all that jazz just doesn't translate to effectiveness like you'd think. If you start with a spear and then move to a glaive, you'll realize you get more kills stabbing, and more gimps from swiping.

The hook area would be hard to pass, and axes will usually have a hard time staying together because of the stress that gets applied to the edges.

You could do a glaive with a shield hook, with 2-3ft of striking surface with the hook at the base.

Taco would be your best bet for construction help. Since you are looking at a 6'5" that's about 5" longer than my short spear. We can talk theories about the weapon on Saturday.
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Trenton

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:47 am

4.1.11.6 - No weapon may have a spike or blade at the butt (pommel) end. Note that
double-ended weapons (below) may have stabbing points at ends; this is different from a
blue sword with a green stabbing spike on the pommel.

-A halberd/poleaxe is not a sword. Its a double ended weapon and/or red weapon. Both double ended and red weapons can have green stabby tips. The question is which is its primary classification. I'd assume red since its mainly meant to be used two handed. And its end heavy like a pole-arm not like a quarter staff.

Hook manuvers are not what you truly think they are. Unless your fighting someone on horse back the hooks are positioning tools. Meant to control your opponent. Whether its shields or weapons. Also hooking is determined on which ward your in. Think wards and a cross between stance and style.
If you look at an axe it has natural control points. There is no difference between the axehead of an axe and the axe head of a halberd.

Halberd control, blocks, and parries all come from regional positions on the staff and near the ends.

I want to stay away from building a voulge.
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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:33 am

The effectiveness a Halberd has IRL and what it will have against someone in Dag differs. Are you intending to perhaps shield hook and then stab?


In order to have a pommel spike it must be classified as a double ended weapon:

4.2.5 - Double-ended Weapons

4.2.5.1 - Double-ended weapons must not be more than 7 feet long.

4.2.5.2 - Double-ended weapons must have a minimum of 18 inches in length of a cylindrically padded striking surface on each end.

4.2.5.3 - Both ends must pass as green or neither end will pass as green.


It cannot be classified as a Double Ended Weapon AND a Red Weapon.

You'll also want to keep this in mind:

4.1.9 - No swung weapon may have more than 1/3 of its overall length unpadded, nor have more than 30" unpadded.


Also I can't seem to find where it says the max length of a red is 7ft, maybe you were thinking of Double ended weapons? I have seen 8ft and 10ft glaives in pics before.


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Trenton

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:14 am

The hooking example I'll have to physically show you.

As for the rules your almost caught up to me. now let me explain my thought process.

A true halberd is a great one on one weapon. In group combat it can get unwieldly. One of the reasons I wanted to keep it under 7' was do to the idea of a dual strike zone. The "butt spike" is one of its primary weapons. The butt spike is stabby only. But can't have stabbies on pommels. To have a butt spike it would have to stand as a dual ended weapon. Thus fitting all the categories as such.

If a weapon can be made to fit in both sets of categories why wouldn't it work as both? a red on one end Blue on the other? or in this case, green only.
I don't see any rules that state otherwise.
Take a javy for example. Its by natural dual qualified. Its a thrown mainly but can be used as a spear also.

I would point out
4.1.11.8 - Double-ended weapons such as quarter staves are always considered to be blue
weapons.
However: 4.3.2 - A swung weapon (sword, axe, mace, glaive, halberd, etc.), 48 inches or longer is considered a red weapon when swung with two hands.

A halberd is not a quarter staff.

6' 5" => 78" -(dual weapon padding of 18 " x 2) = 42 inches "uncovered"
(1/3*78)= 26 inches. Total allowed space to be uncovered. well under 30"
Leave 16" to be covered.

At this rate I may just say F it and make a quarter staff. I've been trying to loophole the rule book for months. All why keeping the safty factor of the weapon primary.
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konradr

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 6:42 am

You can build a halbard. I've built one, other's have as well. It can not have a striking pommel of any kind. It must be 2/3rds safely padded. Look on the Dag forum or the Bel forum there are people who've posted pics on building Reds, quarterstaffs and, yes, Halbards.

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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:23 pm

Unfortunately at the point of trying to find loopholes, see Rule Zero:

Dagorhir is a game of honor. In all aspects of Dagorhir, common sense supersedes loopholes. In applying the rules, safety comes first, followed by playability, then "realism." Please read the rules thoroughly (several times is recommended). The rules are written to be self-explanatory, clear, and detailed, but not every angle of every situation can been covered. Often a rule is clarified later in the same (or subsequent) paragraph. Loopholes will not even be considered by the Heralds (referees), check-in personnel, officials, or other players.


At the moment there is no rule support for weapons that have a striking or stabbing pommel while not having an identical cylindrical padding on the other end.

You could try a "quarter staff" that has a cylindrical hook around the base one end, but the sharkfin halberd hooks would be out. You could have 18" of striking surface at the bottom, and 30" at the top.
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konradr

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:26 pm

Quote :
You could have 18" of striking surface at the bottom, and 30" at the top.

Which is what I plan on doing to my 7 foot spear. It will; however, have 18" at both ends, with the other 21" being safe padding rather than a striking surface. It will in be a 'quarterstaff' which is a blue but in effect, a spear with a spear end, a buttspike and a striking 'part' and 'pommel' end as well as pointy parts. In effect it would work on both ends much like a glaive for gimping limbs, etc, but not for breaking shields or going through armor with one hit. It can pierce armor with a double handed thrust.

Any kind of an axe head would make it an axe.

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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:42 pm

http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37770&start=50

Forkbeard did something similar, at the top of page 2 is a pic of it that Fitz made for him.
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konradr

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:57 pm

Which is where I got the idea from.

This guy made a halbard and placed the pics on the Dag Forum. It was critizied for not having enough safety padding on the haft.



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Taco

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:29 pm

its doesnt in my book getting hit by that would just hurt someone.
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Trenton

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:02 pm

/facepalm
Am I communicating this wrong? Is there some sort of misconceived notion at what I'm trying to do?

yes your are right. And that is Exactingly what I want to do. That brings up my orgional point I can't find a material efficient way to make said weapon. No matter its rating.

yes, there would be safty padding on the who damn thing.
Yes, it would have two striking surfaces.
Yes, it would be under 7'.
Yes, there would be an axe head.
Yes, the only way you can have a grreen stabby is with a striking surface. Thats the point I've been trying to get across.

The only par NOT covered would be the ALLOWED 26" figured out by the basic math here.
6' 5" => 78" -(dual weapon padding of 18 " x 2) = 42 inches "uncovered"
(1/3*78)= 26 inches. Total allowed space to be uncovered. well under 30"
Leave 16" to be covered.

I have been reading and trying to categorize this weapon build for months. I know all the required rules. The rulebook is on my desktop, I am staring at it as I type this. I needed help getting the weapon to FIT in all the categories I was trying to shove it in and not weight 40 pounds.

BESIDES that.

I am VERY aware safty come before anything else. The loop hole I was talking about was weapon classification this is in the OPPOSITE direction I aimed for this post.

My unrelated question is. If I build this weapon. Managed to fit all the requirements for both double-ended weapons AND reds into it. Which would maked it one of the safest weapons ever seen in Dag due to al the padding. Which would it be. A red, a blue, or can it be red on one end and only count the green spike on the other? ( YES is would still have blue wrapping but would never be used as such)



Last edited by Trenton on Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Trenton

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:04 pm

You know what.

Never mind. F it. This is not worth trying to communicate on the boards.

See you at practice.
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konradr

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:36 pm

Attempt at iluminating illustration:



Weapon A is a legal RED as long as the Axe blades, on both sides, or Axe blade and hammer, hit safely, do not flex or bend, and are a min of 1.25 like a sword blade. The padding (3) must be safe and cover 2/3. The pommel is non striking, is not counted in the 2/3 and must be 2 inches in diameter. As you can see it has two legal striking sides 1 & 2 which can be used to hook with as well. It has a green stabby end too (4).

Weapon B is a blue in that it is made with a stabby/striking area on both ends (a & b). It must conform to the 'quarterstaff' rule as no other weapons are allowed to have striking surfaces on both ends of the weapon (a & b). The striking surfaces must be cylindrical and at least 18 inches and with stabby tips. The latest ruling on cylindrical weapons is that they must be 3 inches in diameter. You can place a shield hooking type piece of foam on either end, but it should be within safe dimensions and not fold over.

Or just build it and it will be tested for safety and you will recieve a yay or nay.

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:57 pm

The moment you add an axe head to it, it stops being a quarter staff. I like the idea, and the diagram you drew makes sense Trenton, it just is not supported by the rules yet. A quarterstaff is the only type of double ended weapon allowed, and cannot be a red.

Here's a similar thread on the Dag boards with some explanations of why it's not supported (yet).

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=20868.0
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Trenton

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:28 pm

Oh goody I'm not totally retarded trying to explain what I mean. lol.

So after reading all but the last few pages. The only thing I've seen that could be good reasoning is that it could be unbalanced game-play wise, But the unbalance of is the same as a having a quarter staff. There seems to be confusion on that board about allowing a green spiky on the pommel of swords. Which is just silly. My argument is strictly attached to two handed red pole-arms.

When its all said and done. There really is simply no real defined rule on butt spikes on polearms.

That is one of the reasons I was trying to combine the rules for both safety and sense. The sense part seems to be lacking lol. effectivly attaching a red polearm on one end and a spear on the other. But keeping in the defined space of a double-ended weapon. 7'

Soo after all the discussion its safe to assume it would simply be a blue polearm. Razz
cool.
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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Fri Jun 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Buttspikes are only allowed on double ended weapons, and double ended weapons must have 18" of cylindrical strike padding on them on each end, which is as close to a quarterstaff as Dag will ever get. So if your halberd has 18" of cylindrical striking surface after the halberd part, you /might/ get away with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:23 am

No, it would not be a blue polearm, the second you attach anything other then cylindrical padding to a double ended weapon is stops being a blue double ended weapon and becomes a colored appropriately to size (in this case red) weapon with excessive pommel and haft padding. Stop trying to cheese the rules to your advantage and just learn to fight while following the rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:42 am

Trenton,

Nobody said you were being retarded in explaining what you want to do. The problem is that you're not hearing it when your very historical idea of a pommel spike is pointed out as violating Dagorhir's rules. You're right that there are playability issues, but the bigger problem is one of safety.

When it is all said and done, as you put it, the rules do not allow butt spikes on polearms. Period.

If you make a weapon 4 feet or longer like the one in that picture or Konradr's diagram, it's a red weapon. Call it a popsicle or a kumquat, the thing that matters is that it will be tested as a red weapon at events.

Clearly you're excited and have found a fun weapon that you want to use. I understand that - glaive is one of my favorite weapons. Ask Knubbs about my glaive, he probably saw it at Fool's Raid. It was built back in '88 and other than some periodic maintenance it's been a pretty useful tool.
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PostSubject: Blackhawk   Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:10 am

Dear Trenton:
Your idea of a butt spike on a halberd is safe, historically accurate, and realistic (and those are damn nice drawings). However the rules of Dagorhir do not allow for such weapons. You are correct in thinking that it would be an uberpowerfull weapon, and you would be an instant badass. That is the problem, we have done this in the past, and this type of weapon is a game breaker. No amount of rules lawyering or loophole finding will convince the greater part of Dag to allow you to use this at an event. If you were the best lawyer on the planet, the head weapons checker at an event would just get tired of listening and say "NO" followed by the all important "Cause I said so and I am in charge!"

Good luck in your future endeavors.
Blackhawk
Vice president Dagorhir Battle Games Association.
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Trenton

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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:19 am

1. I'm was trying to make a weapon to fit my fighting style while still applying to the rules and regs of dagorhir and still be safe. I've been fighting with halberd since I was old enough to hold one. Which was 14 . Its only natural to want to fight with something your comfortable with. That is all.
2.Casimir Glassjaw, I have no idea who you are and no offence mate I really don't care. The point is I'm not trying to "cheese" the system. And seeing as you don't know me personally I'll let the insult slide. But do know that was a very grave insult.
3. Kyraz, I wasn't saying I was being retarded. I have a habit of mis-explaining things in writing and alot of experience with people replying differently then to the question asked. No problem there.

The "blue polearm" was a joke. Chill.

All in all that's fine and dandy everyone was so interested in this discussion. But I didn't need three people to say the same thing
and conclusion. Thank you for your concern, But this discussion was over as of my last post.
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PostSubject: Re: Need help desiging a halberd. Spear fighting has made me drool.   Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:48 am

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