Newbs, Vets, Safety and YOU!

I have been noticing lately, that with the influx of newbs to the field, that many rules are starting to be not enforced by us Vets who know better, namely Charging...several times today I was full on body checked, I had no shield...they had no shield...this is illegal by Dag rules...and worse yet a veteran player was telling his newbs to do it, (this occured during the goblin wave game) this resulted in 2 injuries today, a bloody nose and a twisted ankle...both the result of stupid charging, and not weapon blows, I've also been seeing folks charge at people's backsides when they are unaware, again another nono, and people doing flying tackles through the air...as fun and cool looking as this may be...it gets our fellow players hurt....I know that none of us desire to injure our playmates...if we did, we'd soon run out of playmates....so folks, please have a cooler head, and enforce the rules for safety

I've been playing Dag for 14 years, SCA for 10, Nero for 4...and its come to my observations that 90% of injuries on the field happen when people behave stupidly and do foolish things without thinking


Razi

"Rule Zero"

Dagorhir is a game of honor. In all aspects of Dagorhir, common sense supersedes loopholes. In applying the rules, safety comes first, followed by playability, then "realism." Please read the rules thoroughly (several times is recommended). The rules are written to be self-explanatory, clear, and detailed, but not every angle of every situation can been covered. Often a rule is clarified later in the same (or subsequent) paragraph. Loopholes will not even be considered by the Heralds (referees), check-in personnel, officials, or other players.


The "body checking" of people would be considered grappling and as such, know that grappling may not be initiated from more than two steps away and from someone not wearing armor or carrying a bow. Upon this happening, the Herald should have removed the initiating player from the field for the duration of the fight/game in play and explain again to said player "Rule Zero". If you do not understand why this is such, please read and reread again the "Rule Zero" I have posted above. No injury should ever occur on the field if that simple rule is followed.


-Izmiranna Peregrine
Pirate Viking or Viking Pirate...?

Goblin horde is a charging game, always has been and was developed by Tolga (?) and Mordrauk (?) of Aggelgorod both of whom have been playing dag since the '80's. Yes it can get rough but so does playing dagorhir. I'm not saying we shouldn't care about eachother's safety because I firmly believe in that as well.

But I like accurate information. Nowhere in the rules about shield bashing and checking, does it say you can not shield bash someone who doesn't have a shield. Here, let me post the rules as written on the national website after this year's rag:

Quote :

4.8 - Shield Bashing and Checking:

4.8.1 - A shield bash means using a shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance more than two steps away.

4.8.2 - A shield check means using a shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance two steps away or closer.

4.8.3 - Players may shield bash an opponent on their front or side. Bashing an opponent from the rear is prohibited. Bashing an opponent who has lost a leg is prohibited.

4.8.4 - Players may shield check an opponent from any direction. Players may shield check opponents who have lost a leg.

4.8.5 - It is never permissible to strike a fighter in the head or neck with a shield.

You can not shield bash someone in their rear or on their knees. That's it for no no's.

You aren't suppose to shield strike someone to the head or neck. I think some of you shield basher's need to lower your shields according to the head area of your opponant especially if they do not have a shield to protect themselves with.

Some fighters love to shield bash and watch their opponants be smashed into pulp. There is no rule expressly against it, but it can hurt someone if that person doesn't restrain themselves at least to just enough force to get the job done and no more.

Konradr

Neither person had a shield Konradr.

-Izmiranna Peregrine
Pirate Viking or Viking Pirate...?

Oh, then that's different. Nevermind.

No grappling from more than two steps away. No leaving the ground to do so either. Even shield kicks require one foot on the ground when contact is made.

Konradr

if you have a shield and the other person doesn't can push them like not a bash or a check but just push them so they have to backpedal?

Yes, it's called a check really. It's allowed

yes kraiken Shield users can do everything to another fighter long as its not from the rear or the target is on his/her knees.

This issue is 2 people without shields and i have no idea what the rules would be on that i will have to look it up but it does not sound safe or fun. I was shield Charged by Libra when ATD came out and i did not have a shield but you better believe i still put my shoulder down and stopped his rush cold, But body checking dunno.


As for Goblin horde it is a crazy and fun and unsafe game. IF you are worried about being hurt then sit out its not meant for the timid . The object of the game is crazy little goblins rushing a wall of defenders.

I have already answered the question/issue of neither having shields...

-Izmiranna Peregrine
Pirate Viking or Viking Pirate...?

4.9 - Grappling:
hide

4.9.1 - Grappling is defined as wrestling in a safe and reasonable manner, attempting to subdue or unbalance your opponent without strikes, throws, or joint/nerve holds.

4.9.2 - A person in armor or rigid plastic safety equipment or carrying a bow and/or arrows may never initiate a grapple.

4.9.3 - Players are not allowed to initiate a grapple starting more than two steps away from an opponent.

4.9.4 - Grappling from behind should be done with great caution and will be closely monitored by Heralds for safety.

4.9.5 - Body checks (blocking your opponent's movement using one's body) are allowed.

4.9.6 - Punching and kicking are never allowed, except in the case of shield kicks as outlined above.

4.9.7 - An unarmored fighter may choose to initiate a grapple with any opponent, including those who are armored or carrying bows or arrows.

Edit: Corrected. Not sure how you body check within 2 steps but it is still "Legal". Also the game Goblin horde is that type of game and if you think your safety is in jeopardy then sit out it is part of the game.

Barrikaide wrote:

Dont think you did Izzy mainly because the Step rules pertain to Shield bash or check. Rule Zero does not mention body checking.

4.9 - Grappling:
hide

4.9.1 - Grappling is defined as wrestling in a safe and reasonable manner, attempting to subdue or unbalance your opponent without strikes, throws, or joint/nerve holds.

4.9.2 - A person in armor or rigid plastic safety equipment or carrying a bow and/or arrows may never initiate a grapple.

4.9.3 - Players are not allowed to initiate a grapple starting more than two steps away from an opponent.

4.9.4 - Grappling from behind should be done with great caution and will be closely monitored by Heralds for safety.

4.9.5 - Body checks (blocking your opponent's movement using one's body) are allowed.

4.9.6 - Punching and kicking are never allowed, except in the case of shield kicks as outlined above.

4.9.7 - An unarmored fighter may choose to initiate a grapple with any opponent, including those who are armored or carrying bows or arrows.

Does not say anything about couple steps for any kind of Grappling. So after reading this Body checks are legal. Interesting i never looked into this. Problem with Body checks it would be inadvisable and you better die if the person you are trying to body check kills you on your way in.

Um, please look at 4.9.3 of your own post.

-Izmiranna Peregrine
Pirate Viking or Viking Pirate...?

Body checks are only blocking your opponent's movement, not a a charging type maneuver. And that is allowed.

-Izmiranna Peregrine
Pirate Viking or Viking Pirate...?

Yeah, I saw what happened. The guy told his team that he was going to rush in as a distraction. He ran in towards the shield line, and got slammed from all sides. It was such a fail that even those on his own team started laughing. It was his very first day, so he probably didn't know the majority of the rules. Later that day, he told me that he doesn't like how rough the play is, and isn't going to come back due to someone hitting him in the face with their elbow. So yeah, the rules need to be enforced, but more than that, people need to know what the rules are. I remember at my first practice, the Black Lions one, Taco gathered all of us newbs up and started explaining the rules with the help of Dustin. Though he didn't go through everything, he didn't exactly have a copy of the rules to go off of, either, and covered as much as he could. We didn't know all of the rules, but at least we knew what we were allowed to do. I didn't see that yesterday, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The problem with this is that in goblin horde, unless it is the last round, usually there will always be shields that the goblins are rushing into. If there are shields it is perfectly legal to bum rush them. I didn't ever really see a group of unshielded people charging another group of unshielded people.... Most of our guys have shields.

All newbs get a very basic instruction in the rules when they come up and say they want to play. After that, they are allowed to play and learn as they go. The rules are available to everyone on the Dag Website. You can print a copy off if you want. You can study to your heart's content. If you try to explain every little niuance of the game in one sitting its going to confuse everyone and things will be forgot. Better to learn as you go and study on your own.

Some units, such as Taco's, require a knowledge of the rules as a test before advancing within the unit. I've seen units require written if not verbal tests on the rules.

Konradr

So here's my question. And try to think about it from as many sides as possible.

Should we consider a Cadre of Vets (three from each unit) and set some time aside on Saturdays for actual training? This would effectively be level based where new people would be with themselves and their trainers and the vets would be on the other side of the field training each other. Actuall honest time blocks set aside for the purposes of going over rules as they pertain to the field. For example, "in the heat of battle being able to judge the distance of 'two steps' to execute certain maneuvers."

If that happens, people have to agree to shut up and listen and follow directions.

I tried to set up a training activity for a practice or two.

Didn't work because certain individuals don't know how to follow directions and changed the whole activity.

I ran training sessions every week for six weeks and had no problems with people listening to me. They even asked more questions throughout the day to make sure they didn't do anything wrong. Also, they started coming to me for more training in kits they preferred. Training for new and newer people is very easy, when done in small doses through the day.

-Izmiranna Peregrine
Pirate Viking or Viking Pirate...?

I love the idea. Having certain parts of the day where everyone, new and old, can go off and train sounds fun. Especially for those that have heard all of the 'lectures' already, who can go and train with a tutor or something.

That's kinda what we do at Tuesday practices. I'd like to see that on Saturday's too.

tuesday practices we've been pairing the vets with a newb and it's the vets job to make sure that the newb gets it. i liked that one practice that izzy did where she had the new people shadow the vets. it's been really effective at tuesday practice. it's gonna well we do like a bear pit then they pull them a side have each one of them teach them Rules and then do like a two man team battle but they don't switch teams they stay with the newb they were givin. also giving structure and guidence right there when they have a question. and once they die the teacher can tell them like EXAMPLE: oh right there you left your right side too open let me show you what you can do to not let that happen again. to me you're giving them personal attention. i think they like it.

Unfortunately, it's not the newbies who have the problem listening.

What ever happened to shadowing noobs? That seemed to work well back in July when I joined. If shadowing is enforced it protects the noobs (even from themselves) and lets them learn the rules as they go. 'sides, shadowing builds strong bonds of fellowship and respect, and who doesn't want that?

Also, to be honest, I chalk up this last Saturday's epic fail to Izzy and Convel not showing up. Way to go, guys. Ruined it for everyone. ;-P

***JKing, IZZY!***

The Norse can get so touchy sometimes....

-Hollister
RA Initiate
War Wolf Blood Brother
Fo.Olish Peasant

Hollister wrote:

What ever happened to shadowing noobs? That seemed to work well back in July when I joined. If shadowing is enforced it protects the noobs (even from themselves) and lets them learn the rules as they go. 'sides, shadowing builds strong bonds of fellowship and respect, and who doesn't want that?

Also, to be honest, I chalk up this last Saturday's epic fail to Izzy and Convel not showing up. Way to go, guys. Ruined it for everyone. ;-P

***JKing, IZZY!***

The Norse can get so touchy sometimes....

-Hollister
RA Initiate
War Wolf Blood Brother
Fo.Olish Peasant

pretty much what i just said... lol talk about not listening.. but you said it way better... thanks

i think the shadowing builds friendships.. and makes the newbs not feel so out of place. you know we were all there. we were all beginners at one point.. i'm still a newb and sometimes i get too overwhelmed being a newb. lol cause i know i'm not as experience and cool as y'all. but having someone othere to constantly tutor me helps me a lot!.