Articles of Confederation V-1

Who is the acting leader of the RA? Do they get two votes if they are on the council? (since the council has for a long time been mostly RA members).

i believe if a unit leader is on the council the Unit leader will appoint someone in his unit to be on the council. At least that is was it sounds like. So if Konrad were on the council he might name Templar, Convel, or Izzy as the council member for his unit.

I think that's what the advisers are for. I'm guessing that an advisor from each unit can go with the leader to the meetings each month?

K'urn wrote:

Members/Elections:
Anyone who expresses interest and follows all Dagorhir rules may join the realm. Only 'active' members may be a council candidate or vote in elections. Active members may only vote once per position per election. 'Active' is defined as anyone who signs a waiver a consistently participates in two or more practices and or events (which could include weapon builds, sewing circles, day events, and any get together sanctioned by the realm) per month. 'Consistently' is defined as any three month period within the last six months prior to elections. Elections will be held every even numbered year in August/ September.

So... if I read this right, what I need to do is get some waivers, hand them out to my friends, host a weapon/garb build during which me and my friends sit around playing xbox for a couple of hours (I'll make one sash just to make it legit). Rinse and repeat a couple of times, and voila!

Instant votes.

By individuals most of the realm will never see, will, in fact, never fight with or against, and who could care less about the realm as a whole. In fact, they wouldn't care about the realm at all, they would just throw their votes where I asked them too as the price for playing my xbox.

Or what about my mom. She likes to sew. She lives in Texas, but I think I could organize a web-ring sewing day - get all them grannies involved.

I know this sounds extreme, but it isn't as far fetched as you might think. All these exceptions and attempts to accommodate every single tom, dick and harry is gonna result in a definition of "active" that any Bobby Spectator off the street will be able to meet.

Try this for "Active";

1.) Owns a personally-crafted set of garb covering the legs and torso. Garb must meet Dag minimum standards. A Council Member, Tribunal Member, and/or Unit Commander must witness this (on their honor).

2.) Owns a personally-crafted weapon - any kind as long as it meets Dag minimum standards. A Council Member, Tribunal Member, and/or Unit Commander must witness this (on their honor).

3.) Participates in at least two Realm Practices per month for the past 3 months.

4.) Participation in unit practices count towards the 2/month total only if the unit is;

A.) In good standing (meets the requirements for being a unit)
B.) Been in existence for at least 3 months
C.) Has fought at a Realm-sanctioned event in the last 6 months.

5.) Has been a member of the Realm for at least 6 months.

This should narrow the field to the people that have invested the most, and care the most, about where this Realm is going.

EDIT: For clarification, "participation" means actively fighting. Not sewing, not hanging out, not cooking, dancing, singing, or making merry. Fighting.

So many laws. Whatever happened to showing up and fighting?

Sorry Hollister, I stopped reading at your mom. You read too much into it lmfao. It clearly says sanctioned by the realm, not you hosting a private build playing xbox with your friends who don't come out to practice or some web-ring. Wow, nice try there.

I think it's fine worded as revised.

i think you going over bored holister, thats to many guidelines

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1.) Owns a personally-crafted set of garb covering the legs and torso. Garb must meet Dag minimum standards. A Council Member, Tribunal Member, and/or Unit Commander must witness this (on their honor).

I want to make some garb, but I have to find a unit commander to witness it for it to count as me being active? No thanks.

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2.) Owns a personally-crafted weapon - any kind as long as it meets Dag minimum standards. A Council Member, Tribunal Member, and/or Unit Commander must witness this (on their honor).

What if I didn't personally craft it? I'm not active then?

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3.) Participates in at least two Realm Practices per month for the past 3 months.

Acceptable. Still unfair to those who can't make it to practices, but still support our group. (Like Dwyna, who used to be able to help with althings only)

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4.) Participation in unit practices count towards the 2/month total only if the unit is;

A.) In good standing (meets the requirements for being a unit)
B.) Been in existence for at least 3 months
C.) Has fought at a Realm-sanctioned event in the last 6 months.

So they don't even have to attend realm practices?

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5.) Has been a member of the Realm for at least 6 months.

Why? It doesn't take 6 months of fighting or participating in the realm to have a voice

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EDIT: For clarification, "participation" means actively fighting. Not sewing, not hanging out, not cooking, dancing, singing, or making merry. Fighting.

You just bus kicked every noncombatant who doesn't fight, but still manages to help out with sewing, and weapon building.

WAY overboard.

1.) Owns a personally-crafted set of garb covering the legs and torso. Garb must meet Dag minimum standards. A Council Member, Tribunal Member, and/or Unit Commander must witness this (on their honor).

Tooka wrote:

I want to make some garb, but I have to find a unit commander to witness it for it to count as me being active? No thanks.

Why not? A ranking officer of some kind must presumably be present at a garb/weapon build anyway, and you were all for counting those. A ranking officer of some kind is presumably gonna be checking your garb to make sure it is legit, so why not have them as part of the creation process? What is wrong with having someone sign off on it? If you are in good standing with your unit commander, that shouldn't be a problem.

2.) Owns a personally-crafted weapon - any kind as long as it meets Dag minimum standards. A Council Member, Tribunal Member, and/or Unit Commander must witness this (on their honor).

Tooka wrote:

What if I didn't personally craft it? I'm not active then?

Yep. A strange thing I have noticed since I joined; the serious players, and the players that have the most respect for the sport, have made their own weapons at one point. Most don't crank them out like Konradr, but they do make them. Even if they are just getting assistance.

Making your own gear is kinda like a graduation that separates the curious passerby from the serious player. For the purposes of playing the game, your active/inactive status don't mean squat. You can still come down to the field whenever you want and borrow a sword to hit peeps. However, that doesn't mean you should have voting rights. A certain level of dedication, of commitment, and responsibility should come with the privilege of voting.


3.) Participates in at least two Realm Practices per month for the past 3 months.

Tooka wrote:

Acceptable. Still unfair to those who can't make it to practices, but still support our group. (Like Dwyna used to do!)

Really? Like I said - you make the requirements to lax and you might as well not have them. Life is not fair, not even a little bit. The more you relax the requirements for voting, the more you devalue them. And devalue the people that have, whether through fortune, fate, or just pure determination and sacrifice manage to consistently make every practice possible.

4.) Participation in unit practices count towards the 2/month total only if the unit is;

A.) In good standing (meets the requirements for being a unit)
B.) Been in existence for at least 3 months
C.) Has fought at a Realm-sanctioned event in the last 6 months.

Tooka wrote:

So they don't even have to attend realm practices?

Tooka.... this rule allows those poor, unfairly denied, souls that are victimized by #3 a chance to retain voting rights even if the work every Saturday. All day. Then they can make their unit practices, and by showing dedication, keep their member status active. I am surprised you didn't see this.

5.) Has been a member of the Realm for at least 6 months.

Tooka wrote:

Why? It doesn't take 6 months of fighting or participating in the realm to have a voice

I agree totally. It does not require 6 months to have a voice. Most children are born with a voice.

What does that have to do with voting rights? Presumably you are implying that people with voting rights don't have a voice. You must not be much of a history buff. Or into recent events, like the overthrow of all those totalitarian regimes in the Middle-East.

Even in America, where the voting rights are, perhaps, the most easily attained, you still have to wait until you are 18 to gain them. Good reasons for that.

Six months allows the newbs a chance to see how things are, learn the reasons why they are like they are, and, most importantly, is a demonstration of their desire to be a productive part of Barad'dun society. At the least, it shows they care.

*****************************************************************************************************************************
This should narrow the field to the people that have invested the most, and care the most, about where this Realm is going.

Tooka wrote:

No.

Fair enough. You have the right to disagree.

EDIT: For clarification, "participation" means actively fighting. Not sewing, not hanging out, not cooking, dancing, singing, or making merry. Fighting.

Tooka wrote:

You just threw all those people who help others make their garb, and their weapons, under the bus. WAY overboard.

Ummm... I fail to see how. Wait, let me think... who helps others make weapons and garb... hmmmm... Taco? No, he fights. Ummm... Smithy? No, he fights. Ummm... Izzy? No... he fights. Ummm... Konradr? No, he fights? Prysm, Dustin, YOU, Demie, ME?!??! No, we all fight! Who is being completely, and utterly wronged by this requirement?

My apologies to any garb/weapon builder not mentioned above. I just shot those names from the hip. I know there is more of you out there.

So, I would like to end with this thought;

If you were to have leave the requirements as posted, Sylar would have had a vote that was equal in value to, I dunno, say... Taco. Or Barricade. Or, even, you, Tooka.

And, even though I disagree with what you say, and even though I take issue with things that Barrikade says, and even though I have gotten really peeved at Taco at times, I can at least take solace in the fact that all 3 of you have fought for this Realm, both on and off the field. I think that your efforts are worth just a little bit more than Sylar's.

Or Joe Blow from across the street who shows up to a couple of practices, hangs out a little bit, and then decides he doesn't like the way things are being run, even though he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about.

Leave the making & breaking of the rules to the individuals who are most affected; the fighters.

Thank You, and Good Night. I'll check this board again when I get off work tomorrow at 5pmish.

I think you are reading too much into it, the only votes we get are to elect officials. We are not council members, we do not choose how things are run now. Taco, Konradr, Heretic, Smithy, Knubbs, and... Strider/Demie? are leaders of the group and they will vote on what happens and how things are run. Joe blow off the streets comes to practice and decides he doesn't like how things are run? He's gonna go to the guy in charge of unit-less people. That's Knubbs, and Knubbs is gonna think about it, and possibly express joe blow's concerns with the council where they will vote on the matter.

That's how this will be run.

So yes, I think Sylar (who's a fairly new guy, but hasn't been out in a couple weeks) has a right to vote on an official just as much as I do, or Taco does.

Also Prysm doesn't fight much, she hasn't been on the field of battle in a while, but you can bet your ass she helped some of our shoddy looking newbs come up with some good garb and feast garb. Even in Smithy's absence, he threw together a badass cowl for Kraken.

i actually like Hollister's idea EXCEPT

the personally crafted stuff. I think you should own garb and weapons that meets the standards but not be personally crafted. I think putting in the time to buy the stuff or have it made or what not is still just as good as long as you own the stuff. Not loaners or jeans and what not. Some people will never put in the time for sewing and such but putting in the effort to getting it made is just as important.

If you dont put in the time to get weapons and garb you are just wasting our loaners that are meant for the really new people.

Oh my god, guys. Shut up.

1. It's in the works.

2. You're reading into it much too far.

3. Most of the people in this thread will have no say in the matter, regardless.

All I have to say is, I love my noncoms and whether someone is active is a subjective term.

Demie Zephyra wrote:

Oh my god, guys. Shut up.

and thats the kind of stuff we dont need.

Demie Zephyra wrote:

3. Most of the people in this thread will have no say in the matter, regardless.

Wonder why we have realm issues and why people feel useless in the realm.

>.>

You know I didn't mean it like that, Barrikaide.

I just want less drama, politics, and more fighting. I could care less about the stuff just as long as the people who are in charge of things actually do things they are i charge of :\

Well said Anthony.

Exactly, we don't need something complex and wordy, we don't need a constitution only the bill of rights or the miranda rights. Remember K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple S word of choice). Which is the motto of most Dagorhir and Belegarth groups.

Just do a basic framework and the council will work on any issues that arise when they arise. There are several groups in the realm with a different view on how things should be run. Neither will be happy if one or the other is dominant. Just find the middle ground so we can all just fight together as proposed by anthony and Grek. hell, I nominate Anthony and Grek to lead the way. Wait, I need a neutral War Wolf in the mix, Ok, Templar. there, our three council men, Anthony, Grek and Templar.

Kind of like ATD's charter?

http://antirdearg.com/static/realm-charter

(Thanks Tibs)

ATD's charter is straightforward and non BS or RP regulated. We could throw in some RP and take out some of the things we don't use here in Barad'Dun, such as a Realm tabard, and the age limit, etc, etc, etc.

I like the charter. Simple and to the point.

I like how simple ours is, except for the subjective 'active' wording. I'd like to see the duties of the King, Shepherd, and Marshal fleshed out a little bit more though.

I think this is something we can work on over the next few weeks.

Also, I propose that all new units be barreled in by the realm. Huzzah?

@Demie

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3. Most of the people in this thread will have no say in the matter, regardless.

Quite the contrary. Everyone will have a say, that's why you get to look at this at all. If your opinion didn't matter to me, I would not have posted it here.

@Tooka

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I think you are reading too much into it, the only votes we get are to elect officials. We are not council members, we do not choose how things are run now. Taco, Konradr, Heretic, Smithy, Knubbs, and... Strider/Demie? are leaders of the group and they will vote on what happens and how things are run. Joe blow off the streets comes to practice and decides he doesn't like how things are run? He's gonna go to the guy in charge of unit-less people. That's Knubbs, and Knubbs is gonna think about it, and possibly express joe blow's concerns with the council where they will vote on the matter.

Exactly!

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I think that's what the advisers are for. I'm guessing that an advisor from each unit can go with the leader to the meetings each month?

The advisers are there for the Unit leaders to have a sounding board, much like the Shepherd will be for the Adunakhor. Yes, to your question.

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I'd like to see the duties of the King, Shepherd, and Marshal fleshed out a little bit more though.

How so? What do you suggest is missing?

@Barrikade

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i believe if a unit leader is on the council the Unit leader will appoint someone in his unit to be on the council. At least that is was it sounds like. So if Konrad were on the council he might name Templar, Convel, or Izzy as the council member for his unit.

Exactly!

@Hollister

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So... if I read this right, what I need to do is get some waivers, hand them out to my friends, host a weapon/garb build during which me and my friends sit around playing xbox for a couple of hours (I'll make one sash just to make it legit). Rinse and repeat a couple of times, and voila!
Instant votes.
By individuals most of the realm will never see, will, in fact, never fight with or against, and who could care less about the realm as a whole. In fact, they wouldn't care about the realm at all, they would just throw their votes where I asked them too as the price for playing my xbox.

Not at all. Only 'sanctioned' events will be allowed to count. Sanctioned events will have to be monitored closely by the Council, and should include sign in sheets so memberships can be audited if necessary.

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5.) Has been a member of the Realm for at least 6 months.

This may be a good idea. Do we set forth a minimum time period to be considered a member?


Very good feedback. Keep it up!!

in service
K-

So when there is an issue or discussion that needs to happen, such as the realm "water" policy for example. How would one bring that to the council to discuss? Will we have a separate forum for the votings, and another (perhaps the commanders forum?) for bringing up issues to discuss before they go to vote?

I assume votings will happen online, and not in person, for that would be unfair to those who couldn't make it or were not informed there was a meeting (oh yeah, that happened quite a bit actually *cough*).

TL;DR
Will we open up the commander's forum to advisors of each unit to voice concerns, and create a separate forum for the council to vote in?

Tooka wrote:

So when there is an issue or discussion that needs to happen, such as the realm "water" policy for example. How would one bring that to the council to discuss?

I would say a clarification is in order within the articles.

Let me see if this works for people. If you have a suggestion or concern you will go to your unit leader or if your unit-less you would go to me, Knubbs. If its urgent enough the unit leaders and tribunal can call a vote there immediately, with 2/3rds approval for the vote or if the concern is not a huge importance, they will note the concern and discuss it @ council meeting. Where it will be discussed and if needed, voted on.

Tooka wrote:

Will we have a separate forum for the votings, and another (perhaps the commanders forum?) for bringing up issues to discuss before they go to vote?

I assume votings will happen online, and not in person, for that would be unfair to those who couldn't make it or were not informed there was a meeting (oh yeah, that happened quite a bit actually *cough*).

I'm against forum voting or things of that nature. If its important enough to warrant attention it needs to be done in person. Either @ the council meetings or at practice. If its worth people's time its worth spending a little of practice to get it figured out.

I believe it stated in the articles that you must show up for meetings or non-attendance will cause you to temporarily lose voting privileges. I'm sure this goes for everyone in the council.

If the new system goes into effect the council meetings will be scheduled and strictly adhered to. The ad-hoc nature of the tribunal meetings isn't the example for what the council meetings will be based on.

I apologize for this but a forum is not for voting.... its for discussion and that is where I believe it will stay.

I'm assuming most meetings will be around practice time to make it convenient for people anyway.

Tooka wrote:

TL;DR
Will we open up the commander's forum to advisors of each unit to voice concerns, and create a separate forum for the council to vote in?

I will make a Council forum or rename the Commander's Forum, whatever we want to do.