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caretaker

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PostSubject: Something Doesn't make sense to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:08 pm

4.1.11.3 - The shaft or blade of a red or blue weapon may not flex greater than 45 degrees
when the weapon is swung in the plane/direction of the striking surface.

Last Saturday when checking weapons I was testing the stave and noticed that I could flex it at the center of it almost 90 degree. I first thought, oh this is defiantly a fail, however others told me about it having to be swung(which was not an original rule, this was an update) Then I was playing with my lovely speed bat, and was thinking....wait!!! Surts speed bats were failed in a similar fashion, tested by the middle and not just the striking surface, or I may be wrong about this happening. However, If i remember this all right, these two weapon fail situations conflict and make no since.

My second question is, because stave's are double ended, wouldnt it make more since to test from the middle for safety reasons? I know from experience of fighting a stave fighter and wanting to rip his head off for how much he would hurt me to kill me:D Staves can be really painful weapons.

In my mind, they either both pass or both fail. Though the stave did not flex over the shield when we tested it, it still flexed at the "shaft" when striking the shield. We didn't take not to that.

I want to know if any of you can help me find talk of this, because I can't find it.

No problems, just curiosity=D
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caretaker

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:18 pm

and as I think about it more. When Isk was originally testing these, there was some sort of comment made about pain and having to test the hafting on his knees:D poor Isk.

I'll just ask Smithy, and if failing is the case, then we shall just have to get that stave some bandshop=D

I apologize, I couldn't sleep, and my mind is thinking too much.
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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:09 pm

Yeah everyone who wiggled that stave was like "WHOA!" but when you actually swing it for a shot, it doesn't flex like that I guess. As opposed to just wiggling it up and down... I dunno o.0
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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:53 pm

Caretaker, I had a similar moment after an event last year and started a thread on the bel board about flex testing flails. It grew into a pretty good discussion of testing flex period (and of the dangers of heralding from photos or videos) so you might find it useful: http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=32040

Also, the information on geddon.org about checking weapons flex covers most of the methods used throughout the sport: http://geddon.org/index.php/Checking_Weapon_Flex
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konradr

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Thanks Isk. I've got to read that stuff on flex. I mean I read your post on the Bel boards, but not the Geddon one. I need to get off the forum now or I'll be late for work. Alot being posted today, that's refreshing to read.

Konradr
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caretaker

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:03 pm

Before I read, Im busy doing so many things at once, what is your opinion on this?

heres a pic of it flexing from the looks of a light hit to smithy on the ground.



Again thank you for the info:D
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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:21 pm

Well, I wouldn't judge flex from a photo first of all. Angle and camera distortion dramatically affect things. Doing a flex test with a double ended weapon is tricky because it's perfectly legal for me to grab the padded, furthest end of the weapon and swing the whole thing at people so long as I don't hit them with the handle. Obviously, it would flex a whole lot more held that way than when it is braced right at the base of striking area as in this picture. So do you test it like it's two separate weapons that share a handle or do you test it like it's one big long weapon?

Personally, if both striking surfaces were the same length, I would probably treat it more like a long-handled club with a strike legal pommel. I would test it by grabbing it at the base of the handle, right next to the nearest-to-me striking surface, and swing it hard in the air and jerk back as hard as I could (think of cracking a whip) while someone standing at 90 degrees to the swing watched the flex. If that was over 45, it fails.
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caretaker

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:32 pm

I just wanted to show you the example. I am not sure how to test it, in dag rules it says flex of the shaft or blade...so technically, if it flexes dead in the center it is part of the shaft. I was using it and i would go to hit a shoulder and it kept sliding up into peoples head because of the bending of the weapon. However, This is what i noticed and am not trying to make excuses for my shots. If a weapon or person cant make the shot properly then the shot shouldnt be taken.

THANK YOU, I brought up the whole its a cylindrical weapon and you can hold the end for stability, i went to tell the person that they could do this, and everyone shot me down. I've been trying to find the answer to that but its no where to be found.

Its quite an odd weapon to test really. I don't want to make people mad, however, i'm trying to figure out the details on this so it is fair and safe to play.
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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:36 pm

I think Rev and Dash both swung it pretty hard from the end and it didn't flex too bad, we'll have to see Tuedsay, Caretaker? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:40 pm

No, i think Smithy, Templar, and I should make the decision together as part of our job. I think it should be fine to play with until then on saturday, its not putting anyone in danger.
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caretaker

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:41 pm

however, i think it should be tested by one hand on handle and the other on the end of the weapon, because this is a legal swing, it should also pass for flex.
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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:04 pm

Caretaker wrote:
No, i think Smithy, Templar, and I should make the decision together as part of our job. I think it should be fine to play with until then on saturday, its not putting anyone in danger.
This is exactly my attitude for practices. There has to be some room made for experimentation and growth and practices are a reasonable place for that to happen. I'll be interested to hear what you guys decide. If you have people concerned about placing your hand on the striking area, the relevant sections of the MoA are:

Manual of Arms wrote:

3.3.6 - Hands and Feet: Intentionally blocking any blow with a hand which is not gripping a weapon or the handle of a shield results in the loss of that arm. Intentionally blocking any blow with foot results in the loss of that leg. Gripping the blade or point of your opponent's weapon with your hand results in the loss of that arm.

3.3.7 - Hands and feet are unaffected by weapon hits if:
. . .
3.3.7.2 - Hands are holding a weapon or the handle of a shield. When not holding anything, hands are considered part of the arm.

4.7.9 - Anvilling, laying a weapon on a shield to avoid taking damage to the shield, is not permitted. Thus, a weapon must intercept the red weapon before it strikes the shield. If the blocking weapon is driven back against the shield by the hit from the red weapon, it does not constitute anvilling. If the red weapon continues past the attempted block with significant force, the blow still counts as a red-weapon hit.

4.10.3 - Anvilling, the act of laying one's weapon on a shield or body part to avoid taking damage, is not permitted.
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:19 pm

The way I was taught was that if it was a round bludgeoning(cylindrical/non-blade) weapon it was legal to hold. Or if you were laying your hand on the flatside of a blade it was legal. However, now that you have showed me this, all is appropriate to hold a weapon like so as long as your not anvil-ling, and/or it is your own weapon. I honestly don't think they would have added those specific words if it wasnt meant to be used like so. So its not a case of a loophole. Plus, i have been told so before.

I have to thank you so much!I reread the MoA at least ten times trying to find the answer of this and was clarified with a couple of words. Like I said i just want to be fair and safe. I thought I was going crazy. At least I've gotten a firm refresher of the rules, lol
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Phoxly

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:25 pm

Ohhh I didn't know that was your job now, D: well lemme know what you 3 come up with?
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:40 pm

Templar and I talked, and at Taco's party we confronted Smithy because for the past many months us two have been checking weps, So We asked for the job and he ran us though stuff to make sure we new our stuff. weapon checks, we just made it official, lol. Which doesn't mean much really. Sorry I didnt sleep last night so im rambling:D
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:47 pm

Well thats good someone has the responsibility of doing it instead of 5-8 of us beating eachother and 3 say it hurts and 2 say its a marshmallow lol. Of course there is more to it than hit tests, but that seems to be the only thing people like to test.
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:54 pm

We check everything everytime and have been for a while. we even check for wear and tear and seperation of layers and core. We test the flex real quick as we hit test them.
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Surt

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:18 am

the reason i said not to test the quarterstasff for flex like that was because you were just bending it. bending weapons is not a flex test you have to test it in a striking fashion. so like hitting it over your knee or a shield works fine. if someone doesn't know what a 45 degree angle is they shouldn't test for flex. you can buy large angled rulers and protractors that can help you eyeball it.

i'm posting up on the dag boards for more input. cuz caretakers right that its kinda wierd since the handle is in the middle.

more to come.

king
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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:08 pm

Cool, Surt. Double-ended weapons are rare enough I haven't tested them much so I will be very interested to see how Barad'Dun decides to handle them.
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Surt

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:43 pm

i guess most people grab it at one end and shake it.
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:26 pm

Surt wrote:
i guess most people grab it at one end and shake it.
that's what she said..... Hee Hee

sorry you walked into that one!
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:33 pm

I have no problem eyeing it. However, its was kind of an awkward weapon to check flex for by myself at that exact second. All I've ever seen weapons tested is the knee and pull test. And, I know now, this is not a test. I had that weapon at almost a 100 degree flex at the center when I was just playing with it.

The issue was how to test it, not whom. Staves are awkward weapons and testing them has never been clear to me.

Im up for just wiggling it, we can even check it by swinging it at the end(one hand end, one hand handle) because this would be a maximum possible swing with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:02 am

Weapon was Retested. Wiggled by the end and maximum possible swing as far as legal hand placement. Templar opinion, Taco, and I watching have failed the stave. We set my shield up to swing at, hitting on the blade, and it flexed so far that it would slap the backside of the shield, meaning like i said, almost a 100 degree flex.

Just thought I'd let you know we failed it.

When the next band shop order, So misses and I can buy some to make staves=D
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Isk

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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:55 pm

The 1/2" square should work well, too, out to 5' or so, and could give you an overall slimmer weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Something Doesn't make sence to me....   Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:00 pm

I think its best to invest in bandshop, its a light material, will never break, and doesn't flex at all. And I know she wants another 7 fter. Last time we all bought enough that they where only $15 a piece.
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