so i have some issues....

within last practice i got hit in the head 4 times. some of the people seem to be quite careless with their fighting. Some people noted that my hits were not hard enough.

I dont know how you guys play but where im from, a noticeable hit, one thats not a graze, skim, or a feather tap.....is a hit. Dagorhir isnt about hurting people, although is seems to happen.

3.4. Judging Hits hits from a hand-held weapon count when a weapon strikes solidly with a noticeable force.

This does not mean "strong" force.....it says noticeable. My hits were solid and noticeable. Alot of the people on the feild have a problem taking hits, ive noticed. people seem to try to escape there hits by saying it was light. Have a little Honor, just take all hits, i do. A hit is a hit. Its not about competition all the time. Its about self-improvement....so sooner or later, you can work as a team and not just on by yourself. I heard complaining of questioning orders....orders from experienced people who know what they are doing. Follow your orders, You want to be good, you have to work as a team. Units have leaders for a reason.

Im just saying, it seems to me that eveyone needs to read the rules for themselves......i noticed people not knowing rules, maybe they should educate themselves.

Just a concern, there were a lot of injures last practice, ive never seen Dag like that, not even at events. I think thats why Surt brought it up to you all

I think something should be done.

i dont mean to seem rude or angry, its honest input thats all.

Thank you:D

Lay it out there Caretaker. Its cool. You are talking from experience. We had a lot of injuries this weekend. We never had any serious injuries before. We have had problems with head hits. I've done my share as well.

Taking hits is an issue. Leaving Ego's at home so we can all have fun is an issue too.

When we do a weapon's check on someone, and I'm sure you've done your fair share, we do light, medium and hard. Would you say the light is 'noticiable force' ?

Then let us give each of our people a weapon's check type demonstration on their backs so they know what is considered weak and what is definately the minimum 'noticiable force'.

On that vein, maybe we should cut down on the free for alls, games and spend some time on the next practice (not this Saturday as St. george is coming down to rumble) and do drills for an hour or so before doing any practice. These drills could be slow work, aimed at working on proper and safe strikes.

We don't have anybody heralding either. The only one's with more than a year's experience in DAGORHIR is Surt, Heretic, Pat and you. Knubbs, Oddvar, Kilanos and Barrikade started sometime before me and I started back in April. Everyone else is newer or new to Dagorhir. Maybe we should have a heralding class and then make it mandatory to have one or two heralds on the field. We must support anyone heralding. Same with just taking hits, applies to taking whatever a herald says even if you think he's wrong.

Its good to bring these issues up so we can work them out.

Konradr

this all sounds good to me ive been tryin pretty hard with all this i think im pretty good about takein hits and ive only cought someone in the head about 4 times in the 6 weeks ive been in but im all for drills and the like

Head shots happen, accidents happen.

I like all your ideas. When weapon checking, light, medium, hard....are all considered hits. A hit is a hit. Its different when its just a tap or a skim. Its not always an easy thing to judge, and with armor you have to strike harder so the person feels the hit. People just need to have a little more pride and just take there hits. If the striker feels the hit in his hand at any degree, its a hit. i mean, i can demo a the difference between a light "hit" and a light "light". i dont know, like i said, the rules say noticeable force.....What we considered hits may be different than others, the rules leave open a lot of argument due to the fact you can explain something physical out in words very well. It leaves out the arguments this way too.

I just have a feeling that people don't know all the rules, they know what they've been taught, the basics, and haven't took the time to learn the game themselves. Back in my unit, we had written tests, and with that you couldn't play until you passed the tests. Also with that it was a way to get up in rank too. And that brings me to the following orders. no one likes following orders, but in dag, someone has to. And Structure, there's no structure. i know that Saturday practices aren't really a unit, just games and such. But just a suggestion, Putting structure in, not only makes units work better as a team, people know there places and their jobs, everyone works as a team. It also makes people feel more pride, it makes them feel more of a part of something. And everything else will follow through. I mean yes, its all truly about the fun. But when people dont take some of it seriously, like the rules or safety. The fun falls apart.

Im not much of a leader, so im not much help. I just wanted to throw my words in:D

oh and like i said, we did game stuff like half the time, we did a lot of line work and skill work most of our practices.

Oh and my GF Kjirstan is shy and not really too interested in playing the game, but she offered to learn all the rules down too the bone and is willing to be a constant herald:D If you are interested.

Ah sounds like an issue that I have seen in Belegarth the past few weeks of our sanctioned practice. Only something sad that I constantly saw were players purposely headshotting rhinos (people who don't take hits are called rhinos here). I think if you headshot someone, you should die on the spot.

This solves 2 issues. First, people who accidently headshot will TRY not to, so they don't die. Second, people who have big egos, and hate to die, won't wanna headshot people, because that would be catastrophic to said person's ego.

I know its not in the Dag rules that headshots should be death for the person who threw the blow, but realms are allowed to have such rules as long as they don't stray away from the dagorhir concept.

As for taking hits, people who don't take hits, make people hit harder, when people hit harder, they get hurt.

One tedious solution to rhinos... double tap. If you run up behind someone and hit them on the back, hit them twice. Just bounce it off twice. Same with arms and legs, if you can afford to do so, double tap. The term rhino originates because people get hit, and the adrenaline is pumping so hard you don't realize you got hit for like 2 more seconds, and then fall down, but if you are a rhino, your gonna realize no one saw you take the hit, and the person who hit you is dead after 2 seconds you got hit, and then keep on charging.

I actually agree with you, Caretaker.

A lot of people don't take their hits.

I understand that I don't hit hard. I'm a five foot tall Asian girl with weak wrists who uses light weapons and hasn't worked out since middle school PE class besides dancing and running.
It's difficult for me to hit hard all the time.

At the same time, some people who have had some headshots don't always take their pushups.

I've been hit in the head quite noticably many times, and only two people have done their pushups.
I understand if you didn't notice, but if you think you might have, at least clarify it with who you hit.

written tests, that's a little far, i think, This game is suppose to be fun. Head shots happen a lot, i have been a person on the field who has hit a few people in the head. and I can see demise with her hits she small and can hit as hard as some people, so you really couldn't call light on her. In my realm's back in Utah and the ones i have ran before, it was always hit hard and take light. and if you hit someone in the head you died. none of this push up stuff. Heralds are a good idea, akeria has always been a herald in the realms i have been in she knows the rules when on the field, she can always help, I also can too i have been fighting bel for 6-7 years. Takeing orders is a personal thing i have been a commander before in battles and it sucks when people don't listen to what you tell them to do. But if they don't want to do, it you really can make them do it, so i do agree with teaching people about it. Taking hits i always tell people never call your hits, becuse you wouldn't want someone your fighting to call there hits on you thats a herald job. Overall i think a way to fix this would be teaching people more about fight, i have seen when people know how to fight, it becomes fun, but i know there is always going to be people who want to be the last one standing on the field or be the best so they don't take there shots. I bet that there are a few people out there that hate fighting me. But to wrap up my long post, i do agree with trying to fix the head shots and people taking there hits, but you have to remeber not to take the fun out of the game, becuse thats why were all here is to have fun.

~TaCo~

Well said Sir Taco =)

And Demie don't sell yourself short for a little wimpy asian girl, your tough, I can tell just by seeing you in the pictures and videos. Your capable of hitting hard. If I can hit hard enough for it to count (130 pounds, 6'2") you can hit hard enough for it to count!

I know, I know.

I am fully capable of hitting hard.
Just ask Whisper, she'll tell you.
She's my sister. She'd know. x]

Just not consistantly.
I have little upper body strength.
I can barely do ten pushups.

i mean, i thought the tests were stupid for me to take, it was kinda annoying, i do agree it wasnt necessary, but people knew the rules. Im just saying....as you also said. people need educated better, taught how to fight, make sure they know rules. Actual training could do some people some good.

And same in my unit, a head shot was taken with an apology, an honor death, and depending how often you were careless with your shots, push ups.

But yes, ive had my fair share of head shots and hurting people, it happens. im just saying there is too much carelessness. Try to hit with a decent amount of force, but like i said a hit is a hit. anything with solid contact. also on the saftey note, i see a lot of over killing happening too. I dont know how many times ive been dead on my knees, with my sword on my head and im still getting wailed in the back. and it only takes 1-2 hits to make sure someones dead, you dont have to hit like ten times.

And Taco, speaking of education, im looking forward to fighting with you again. I havnt fought in a few months so im a bit rusty, but i enjoyed fighting with you, you were quite a challenge. Im looking forward to learning more.

^i think that was the main idea i wanted to bring up, education.

I would like to address the 'light' hits.
Nominal contact from a sword to a target is NOT enough. There, indeed, needs to be moderate force. I'm talking about the force required to drive a nail into a board, to cut into a tree using a nice axe.

You have to remember...ALWAYS...'Would that hit have wounded (Incapacited that limb) me, if that were a real weapon'?
I am a big fan of hitting with noticable force, there are many...MANY people who like to hit hard. Actually trying to hurt someone is not needed. But, niether is merely touching someone with a blade adequate force. To use Konrads example of weapons testing, you should strive to hit with the medium force.

K-

Perhaps my favorite part of Belegarth:

20-45 minutes of each practice, some of the older people (Like Par, Remmy, Katsu, Asalan) would pull anyone who had been playing less than 6 months, (which is about where I am at now, skill level wise) and teach them new things. Such as the high cross shot. They would teach us fighting tactics like pommel fighting, choking up on the pommel, popping your sword down on a shoulder, ACCURATELY, and many many other tactics.

I don't know if you guys do it here, but we also would have something Karion and Par would call "Story time" where basically he'd call everyone over, and give some sort of speech about events, news, training, anything really. We'd all have a chance to raise our hand and speak about something we felt was important. Much like the forums, but to be honest, not everyone in the Dag realm is on our forums I don't think. It wasn't a BIG deal, but it was a nice way of getting everyone together and addressing issues and talking about things, without taking the fun out of the game. They would also announce promotions of people (Bel is huge on having ranks http://geddon.org/index.php/Shannara ...).

I hate having to wait til the next morning to play a catch up, damn.

Okay, first, anyone who wishes to Herald for us, I will support 100% and even make the yellow tabard for their use. Just step up to us and say so. It would be appreciated.

Yes, we need some training. I myself as well. My experience with the SCA was limited to single combat and I only did it off and on for about 8 months, so I am always learning new stuff. I love those training videos there are a ton of them out there. I think I posted the webpage for belegarth forum where they have many training video's and articles on learning to fight. I can bring my laptop each week and we can all study a video together and then do the drills and attempt to incorporate something new in our fighting. We can start with video's on basic stance, etc, etc, We can have you guys with the experience take small groups off by yourself and give the same demonstrations and have each group practice it and then try to apply it. Just tell us you willing to do it and let's implement it.

Another thing is let's not rush to get the fighting going when someone is trying to organize a team. We are all mostly new and need to be organized and told what is expected of us in each situation, the game plan, since the chance of us doing it successfully on our own is Nil. Also when a game or fighting situation is underway, talking about other things should be left for the gazebo when you are on break. When you are on the field, you need to focus on the task at hand and pay attention to whats going on and listening to what needs to be listened to. This will help you fight better, help you understand whats going on, and if possible help you survive the test of blades.

To be honest, I kind of like the idea of instant death to the deliverer of a head blow, even if accidental, unless both opponants wish to wave it off. An honorable apology is all I ever require, I never ask anyone to do push ups. However, if it is blatant and happens several times in a row, I would say the honorable thing is to leave the field and do your pushups. I would also say the officers and heralds have the right to tell you to leave the field and do push ups for anything deemed unneccessary or a repeat offence. In that vein maybe a punishment such as doing 10 to 20 Pel blows against a tree or stationary shield or even imaginary target. The blows needing to be slow and on target, shoulder height or lower.

The rank stuff, the promotion stuff is probably going to be researved for Althing should we continue that.

You will get better with more practice. Practice at home or get together will friends from dag and practice. Ask an experienced person if they have time to practice with you on another day, etc. Those not interested in joining the Royal Army, form your own units, train together, build your own rank structures, and learn together.

I think the standard for a weapon hit should be the 'Medium' blow as in a weapon's check. And everyone should be given a demonstration on their backs. This is what they call "calibrating" in the SCA. Everyone has a different tolerance for hits in the SCA too. So fighters, especially in single combat, which is always a combat of honor, will "calibrate" with one another before the fight by hitting eachother with there full force and seeing if it is acceptable. "Acceptable m'lrod" "come now m'lord you can surely hit harder than that" or the "Oooooofff". Anyhow, you get the picture.

I don't mind writing up simple pop quizzes or things like that which we can spring on you guys either written or verbal, if you will all accept to do them in order to learn the rules.

Konradr

We can press for some more one on one duel fights and small team tourneys in which we all can obsearve the fighters to see what level of competence they are at. We can watch and critique as a group, single fights and small team fights.

Konradr

dang it! i wrote a post and it didn't show up! anyway....... Hit hard, take light. don't call other peoples shots. these are 2 rules everyone should live by. always hit as hard and fast as you can. then there are no doubts.

the next time were at practice were gonna have some serious talk time people. i try to keep things fun but certain others are taking that fun from people and that pisses me off!

all issues will be settled. thank you caretaker for bringing your concerns up politely.

For the record,
I would accept an honorable apology for a headshot as well.

But most times, I don't even know who hit me because they run off to kill someone else.
>.>

Maybe I just get hit so often because my head is where most peoples' shoulders are. x]

Most important thing is C O M M U N I C A T I O N

If I feel a solid impact and they tell me it was on their shield or their pommel, I can work with that. If it looked like I hit them and they say nothing, I will register, "hm, must hit more solidly on this one." Tell people the sword caught on your garb, call out armor, call out head, let them know it was just plain light. Communicating what you felt, especially when you know the other person could be thinking something else, is critical to maintaining trust. Don't slip over into calling other people's shots, though.

I hope this doesn't muddy the water, but another important point to consider is whether the shot was blocked. Some people seem to think, I blocked it so it doesn't count, but a partial block does not save you. To use the weapons checking example, a light weapons checking swing (still a solid connecting blow) should be good enough if it's totally clean. If I partially block it with my sword or shield, it should be a little more than that, but a medium weapons checking shot is still good. If it's mostly blocked a light shot wouldn't carry through to do damage, so a more solid shot is needed.

When I teach a noob, I hit them with a light shot and say, "this is good enough if they score a totally clean shot, but it has to be *this* hard," hit them with a medium shot, "if you block it." That's my take on the issue and the way I teach it. There are various opinions on this, but most fighters, IME, agree Dag is NOT a tap game and they don't want it to be. A hit should be solid to count. Here are three quotes I quite like in regards to taking hits:

Brennon wrote:

I think an emphasis on 'clean' and 'percussive' with a minimum force threshold is the best system: If you've got two of the three, it's a good shot. If it's clean and percussive, it doesn't have to be terribly hard. If it's clean and solid, it doesn't have to be percussive (stabs, mainly). If it's percussive and solid, it doesn't have to be clean (an incomplete block won't save you from a solid wrap).

Bortas wrote:

'Call every strike, if people think they hit you but you don't say anything, they think you are cheating. If you know the shot was close but did not strike, say 'NO'. If the shot made contact but barely so, say 'GRAZE'. Anyone, regardless of how hard they are running can eke out a single syllable. Don't let the weak excuse fly.

Debuenzo wrote:

Emphasize that taking hits is up to them and calling shots is not Mandatory, but letting an opponent know what happened to clarify a 'near-strike' is common courtesy on the field. Not doing so may lead to negative feelings and a bad reputation. A few words here and there can go a long way and are much better and easier than trying to make up for a "cheater" label.

@Demie: Any healthy person can hit solid consistently. It's mostly a matter of body mechanics. If you're struggling with keeping solid hits up, chances are you are trying to muscle it or force it too much. I'd love to chat with you about it when we're down there this weekend, if you'd like. This video is also really helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzXn0EI11o&feature=player_embedded

isk is right. communication is a huge part of it.

the only thing i may not totally agree on is Brennons thoughts on minimum force. this is a full contact sport and light hits do not count. recently dagorhir has been watered down by people who fight with super light weapons causing them to fight with their wrists instead of their arms and causing hits that though you may feel most people wouldn't take. in dagorhir you are supposed to hit hard so always hit with a lot of force. safety is key however so if you have an open shot on someone who doesn't see you then i could see using minimum force. nobody wants to get hit in the back with a 8 ft red glaive full force.

Surt wrote:

isk is right. communication is a huge part of it.

the only thing i may not totally agree on is Brennons thoughts on minimum force. this is a full contact sport and light hits do not count. recently dagorhir has been watered down by people who fight with super light weapons causing them to fight with their wrists instead of their arms and causing hits that though you may feel most people wouldn't take. in dagorhir you are supposed to hit hard so always hit with a lot of force. safety is key however so if you have an open shot on someone who doesn't see you then i could see using minimum force. nobody wants to get hit in the back with a 8 ft red glaive full force.

Amen, Surt. At Shannara Belegarth so many people use these tiny little light weapons that are short, light, fast, and I never feel the shots, but Guy and some others are going to be enforcing the weight limit rules next year as well as fixing a ton of weapons, which won't matter cause I'll be in Vegas. The only thing I love about my mace, its really top heavy and is offbalanced, but if you get hit with it you will feel it, it hits like a ton of bricks wrapped in a SUV of cotton candy. Its also great for hitting weapons away, it doesn't really parry, it just hits their sword, and their 4-6 ounce sword gets FUBAR'd.

I agree with Isk on calling things, its crucial. I used to wear a pair of Hakamas all the time, and people would go for my leg but hit my garb, I actually got pulled aside by Par and had a chit chat with him about ensuring I say "GARB".

I agree with surt. I normally take all hits light or lame.

I was wondering if you would say something Caretaker. I had your arm blocked up in the air 2 times and you tried these little wrist action swings at my wrist. Sorry im not taking those hits. I had your arm blocked up in the air you need to pull back and swing again. I was wondering if you were going to post something because when i talked to you about your swings you looked at me like i was crazy. I probably take too light of hits more often then i should but i want to be fair as possible but when i have your weapon parried like that you need to re swing or try something different. Maybe im crazy.

and maybe you arent talking about those times and i really am crazy i dunno.

In the SCA all combatants are treated as if wearing basic Mail armor, even if they are not. The blow has to be sufficient to go through mail armor.

So remember the Words of our Mentor Kurn. "You have to judge if the blow came from a real weapon, would it have been sufficient to do real damage." If you imagine everyone fighting in Dag is wearing at least leather coverings, not neccessarily armor grade, would the blow have went through that and then at least an inch or more into flesh and bone? It would take a penetration of at least an inch or so to probably affect a person's body part in a damaging way.

There are no Draw cuts or push cuts or tip cuts in Dagorhir. Though a real bladed weapon could cut flesh with these moves, they may or may not cut leather unless the blow was hard enough. The most one would get is a bloody scratch but would probably not even notice it in the adrenaline pumped atmosphere of a fight for your life.

Konradr

I so LOVE you guys! I completely agree that this is a hard hitting game and hits must be made solidly to count. I really think we all agree here and I am so looking forward to this weekend. I do want to add two more things.

1) In Brennon's defense regarding clean shots he did say 'doesn't have to be terribly hard', which I interpret to mean it has to be a solid hit, not a tip cut or a tap since you were unable to deflect the strike in any way and all that force slices into you. To me, that is a light weapons checking shot, i.e. a shot that I would take, if I failed to block it at all.

2) I know where you are coming from Barrikaide and a lot of wrist flicks will be too light, but I would recommend you make sure your criteria are based on strength of hit, not whether the delivery seems OK. Some techniques done correctly can hit the same area again forcibly with little windup.

Isk wrote:

I so LOVE you guys! I completely agree that this is a hard hitting game and hits must be made solidly to count. I really think we all agree here and I am so looking forward to this weekend. I do want to add two more things.

1) In Brennon's defense regarding clean shots he did say 'doesn't have to be terribly hard', which I interpret to mean it has to be a solid hit, not a tip cut or a tap since you were unable to deflect the strike in any way and all that force slices into you. To me, that is a light weapons checking shot, i.e. a shot that I would take, if I failed to block it at all.

2) I know where you are coming from Barrikaide and a lot of wrist flicks will be too light, but I would recommend you make sure your criteria are based on strength of hit, not whether the delivery seems OK. Some techniques done correctly can hit the same area again forcibly with little windup.

We love you too Isk, which is why unbeknownst to you and your group, they are actually going to kidnap you this weekend and keep you in Konradr's basement, only to be let loose every saturday at noon. Heed my warning, man... =D